splendidbetta Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 I want to know what people's opinions are. For the purpose of this thread, let's refer to fish with 'topline irregularities' as 'FTI' ______________________________________________________________________ Do you dispise FTI, and wouldn't touch one with a 10ft pole? Do you see FTI, you don't really like them, but if the fish was otherwise nice you would buy it and/or breed it? Do you see FTI, and you like FTI, and it's something you would love to get your hands on? You don't see FTI, and you don't care either way? ______________________________________________________________________ More importantly to me: If my spawns produced FTI, would you buy them from me if they were otherwise of very good quality? Please, I don't want a debate to arise in this thread. Debating over FTI has been exhausted and it's extremely tedious. If you could just reply to this first post I would be very thankful. If you feel the need to debate then please by all means continue in these threads here: http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=1461 http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=794 http://ausaqua.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=804 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Stefan, do you want me to edit this so it is a poll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splendidbetta Posted December 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 No thanks, Lisa. I would like people to respond with their own personally developed opinions, which would be more valuable to me :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celeste84 Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 huh, well, some fish i see with really obvious irregularities (such as "spade heads") i wouldn't touch at all, but if it was a small irregularity i'd probably breed it and just pick the fry with the best form to keep. i mean you can pick a fish with a perfect topline to match the other with the fault when breeding, and hope for decent topline's in all of the fry, so it's not a major worry if it's not a fish you're planning to show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Topline faults don't bother me, unless it is so obvious and you know it is a defect in the fish and you say "ewww". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callatya Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 I think for me it would depend on severity and the reason behind the irregularity. Its not really a black and white thing for me. I'm a big fan of plakat types, and there are quite a few head shapes that come with that. One of them turns upwards slightly and can look a bit uneven, but I find this to be the most visually pleasing on the body type. Also, sometimes faults are simply from overdoing the inbreeding and can be fixed up by outcrossing. Hold your breath. Sit down. I bred from this. She was from DT lines and I bought her from a description. It *cough* didn't mention the severity of the shape. A few more came down and had similar body shapes. My original thought was that I'd be mad to breed from her and had put her aside to live out her days. Then we came across some nice clean VTs and I thought, why not? Worst comes to worst I have some pretty tank ornaments. These are what I got: Now I know they aren't perfect and I can still see slight dips here and there in a few pictures, but considering what I was starting with, that is a vast improvement in only a single pairing. That made me question a lot of things, including if we should bother paying HM prices for things that are phenotypically perfect or if we should take the next rung down from the same spawn and get something at a more reasonable price and just breed that up towards the goal. It certainly made me rethink deformities (and really, thats definitely a deformity rather than a fault!) and their place in the scheme of things. So yes, I'd buy fish from spawns with topline issues. I'd even buy from a spawn with topline issues if it had other faults providing it fitted in with what I needed. I wouldn't purposely seek it out, but overall it isn't something that jumps out at me as something to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Do you dispise FTI, and wouldn't touch one with a 10ft pole? No Do you see FTI, you don't really like them, but if the fish was otherwise nice you would buy it and/or breed it? Yes Do you see FTI, and you like FTI, and it's something you would love to get your hands on? If by this you mean what people were calling "snakeface" a few years ago, if the headshape is graceful, I think I'd like the fish. But it wouldn't be something I'd seek out. You don't see FTI, and you don't care either way? Depends. On some fish it is obvious. On some it is almost undetectable. I have 2 lots of "FTI" in the spawning tank right now, so I guess you could say I have voted with my feet. If my spawns produced FTI, would you buy them from me if they were otherwise of very good quality? Abso-bloody-lutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howlsn Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 If it was a fish that was from quality parents that didn't have it as a major chronic fault to begin with & wasn't a very severe case I would buy & breed it if I was starting a line or adding it into a line, where it would be bred to a partner with strong correct topline genes. If it had other qualities that I wanted say, great finnage, colour then I would consider the topline issue just a minor fault as I am a breeder that looks at what influence a fish will have for future F2, F3 spawns & working with & around it. I would see it as being able to be improved or bred out through appropriate selection when breeding & breeding on with that line. I would just let buyers of resulting progeny know about it for their reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canfeleq Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Isn't that what selective breeding is all about? As long as you don't breed fault to fault it shouldn't be an insurmountable problem - and the challenge of producing a good line is what makes it fun. I have no problem with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJ Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 I agree. An outcross with a fault or two isn't a huge risk, inbreeding them is where you might get in to trouble and have problems improving a line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canfeleq Posted December 26, 2006 Report Share Posted December 26, 2006 Before I found someone Lea and this forum I had plans to breed from VT's and plakats and see if I could develop the tail types from scratch so to speak. Where I am located getting any other type was almost impossible, and finding females was just as difficult, so I figured that I would have to do it for myself. Once I have my fish room set up I still plan to try it just for fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splendidbetta Posted December 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Thanks for the responses everyone :betta: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 so what do you think of the responses? Come to any conclusions?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splendidbetta Posted December 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 I think everyone's responses played on information I knew/know and helped me bring things back into perspective. I still don't like FTI, but I think I will be less militant and more open minded when it comes to dealing with them if the fault is not very serious in the fish. I'm in a way glad that there are people who think it's a characteristic that can be worked around. I'd like to add something Re: Outcrossing; outcrossing will only work in the long run if your outcross considerably diminishes the extent of the defect. If you are trying to maintain a line, inbreeding is necessary, so if the fault is genetic, then it has a greater chance of being uncovered again once the outcross starts being inbred. This means that several consecutive outcrosses would need to be made in order to eliminate the faulty genes, and then to continue with selective line breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterJ Posted December 27, 2006 Report Share Posted December 27, 2006 Sorry Stefan - I meant that as given, I'd assume most ppl outcross to eliminate undesirable traits and incorporate desirable ones. If the trait is a mendelian dominant you can get rid of it completely by F2 (F1 if the carrying parent is heterozygous) if it's mendelian recessive then it'd be a long time before you could be sure your rid of it, but worst case would be half a spawn displaying the trait if you always select parents without it in their phenotype. Unfortunately a lot of topline issues probably aren't governed by a single allele and food/environment seem to make a big difference to their expression. Sorry if I've caused confusion, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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