Breeding Halfmoon's

[Stewie]

Want to know about something I've heard about breeding Halfmoon's.

I've heard to breed a true HM they use a plakat to a HM.

Don't know which of the fish it is lol. Female or male..

[Matt_95]

You will get 100% Hm from taht cross asuming the Hm parent has no PK genetics and F1 fry will be a 50/50 split of PK and HM. You can breed true HM with both parents being HM. Hope that helps :)

[paul]

Sort of true Matt...

HM x HM will produce long fin fish (provided the parents are not both carrying PK genes)

HM x PK will produce long fin fish (provided the HM is not carrying PK genes)

ie. long fin is dominant over short fin. HM generally refers to long fin with 180degree caudal spread and a 'D' shaped caudal, PK is a short fin.

The question is then about the genetics of HM... well this is multifactorial and reports go that HM x HM does not yield 100% HM fry. Getting a fish to have 180deg spread is about multiple factors, and having 2 HM parents doesn't mean that all the fry will all end up having the same spread. HMPK x HMPK is the same as HM x HM - the question is about getting 180deg spread - and again this is multifactorial. HM x HMPK is no different!

[Matt_95]

Thanks, Thats what I meant, I didn't explain it properly haha. Hm requires physical factors to right? Like flaring it and quality water? Or am I confusing myself again :confused:

[forever_and_a_day]

hm? I though there wasn't actually a 'gene' for HMs? and consequently you can't have 100% HM?

from a HMxHM spawn you are likely to get many HM offspring, but you'll get SDs as well won't you?

plus, isn't the HM form slightly related to environment/ how the fish is reared?

and to answer your last bit, a lot of people on this forum have been finding that females contribute more to the form of

fry than the male.

[paul]

Correct to all of the above...

HM is multifactorial... multiple genes involved (not just one gene), plus the environmental factors

HM x HM does not guarantee HM fry (you need the right tail shape, enough ray branching and enough web spacing plus flaring/exercise to get HM)

Many people have suggested the female is "more importanat" than the male in passing on favourable qualities to the fry to acheive HM. I don;t know for sure... but some of the recent spawns on this forum seem to provide us with some evidence that this is true.

[melbournebetta]

Something that we can't deny is that both parents contribute equally to the fry final form...

I'm no expert on Betta genetics as such, but we all know (as with humans) neither Sire (father) nor Dam (mother) are more important to the result, as it's the way their individual genes mesh that deciphers the result.

I've made a little bit of noise on the forum in regard to the female's form being over-looked with choices in pairing, and stand by it...

I know we want spawns with 90% boys so we can sell them or have tanks full of beautiful boys (let's face it, they're the peacocks)

And having just kept betta for display - I had only boys - why wouldn't you?

BUT when you're planning who to shove in the spawn tank - take a long hard look at little miss.

She's just as responsible as he is for beautiful fry.

end-o-rant!

-Ness

[forever_and_a_day]

I might have a theory about why female form is more important... based on all my readings about HM bettas at least and my limited knowledge of evolution in general.

If the HM betta usually reaches it's full potential by constant exercising/flaring, then theoretically, isn't some of

it's tail volume exaggerated/stretched? (I know I certainly managed to do this with my CT boy)Whereas a female's tail, which gets less exercise (i think? I'm not sure because I've never had a sorority, but these females must become immune to flaring at their own reflection?) is mostly real tail. Does that make sense? In Ness' human terms, if a well-built male and female (coming from a line of well-built ancestors lol) have children, they will likely also have well-built children. If a normal build male, goes to the gym like crazy and then marries a well-built girl, then there is still a good chance of well-built babies, but if this gym crazy guy marries a normal girl, then they'd have mostly normal girls? because this guy's build is all due to gym? and would not contribute to genetics? (maybe after a couple of generations of gym crazy kids it might start contributing)

do I make sense? I think i've confused my self a little @_@

:embarrass:

Edited April 14, 2011 by MT Syndrome

[les]

HM to gym MMMMMMMMMMM

[melbournebetta]

MT - that makes sense to a degree, and dont mind me while I think aloud to help flesh-out the theories.....

A few considerations; I currently have 9 of my copper spawn in a grow-out tank.

5 are in perforated floating Jars so they get the heat and filtration.

4 are in what i'm calling the "runs" which are very narrow (6 cm wide) but 30 cm long divided areas - like barracks... but long.

The dividers are all transparent meshy plastic, they can all see each other, and I know if I had a microphone they would be swearing their heads off... flaring at each other, darting up and down (which is what I want) and swimming plenty.

These kids in the 'runs' are 2 suspected males and 2 suspected females (this is on purpose, they will all get rotated so they get 4 days in the runs/4 days in the jars - until I get a better run system going.)

The tanks are also fairly heavily planted so they don't get stressed out and have some down time up the back.

The theory is this: the kids in the runs will have better developed Caudals; yes, from flaring, but also from travelling horizontally and exercising their bodies overall... instead of longer anal fins from traveling up and down the jar for food.

I haven't done the first rotation, but the difference in size is pretty obvious already, the kids with better circulation and room to "run" are about 4mm longer than their jarred siblings. (after 2 water changes and about 10 days)

Note: They're about 10 weeks old [spawn log here] measuring (guessed) 45mm long ...i haven't got a ruler! but they're a good size.

Both my boys and girls in that spawn have been jarred since 5-6 weeks, and both sexes demonstrate flaring, territorial behaviors and even bubble nesting... so there is no advantage that either sex has had more/less conditioning.

Another consideration: The 4 older ladies I have in separate tanks go MENTAL when I un-card them, which I do several times for around 30 mins a day (or for a few hours if I'm lazy) I do this to exercise them and maintain form. (as it's a theory) Which is irritating because I've been toying with putting together a sorority tank for all the ladies to make my life easier, but it just won't work... I mean, my copper lady's name is FANG for good reason.

So my theory is this (totally open to discussion, this is fun & lets face it, I'm an artist not a geneticist! ...but definitely interested in behavior)

* Females and Males have equal opportunity to develop territorial behaviors if they are all jarred and dealt with at the same time, and in turn will develop to their own full physical potential equally.

(the same as both girl & boy going to the Gym)

* Females may demonstrate less territorial behaviors if they are placed into a sorority tank, develop a pecking order and given time to develop "social consciousness" the pecking order would lead to less disputes and therefore less opportunity to flare and demonstrate the territorial behaviors that (in theory) develop caudal spread and development

(the same as boy going to gym, and gal staying home to knit with all the other ladies)

So I think this debunks the theory that males or females have more impact on the fry outcome - but might raise the question of how the females are raised

Is flaring and territorial behavior beneficial to a fish's development?

Is the sorority tank then a hinderance to the fish's development?

The other point I wanted to make was in regard to "Nature V.S. Nurture"

Its an old argument that discusses what makes up our personalities, and our physical appearance (health/physique/and personal style)

Is it what is in our Nature (i.e. what we have inherited from our parent's genetics and personality tendencies)

Or are we a result of a few genes mum and dad threw together, and the experiences/environment/nurture & developmental advantages (i.e. diet / culture / socio-economic status etc) that have shaped us into who we are.

Bottom line:

I will breed a tattered sad old fish, if I know that once he had spectacular form, and has good health and longevity.

Why? Because I want his fry to inherit his genes (nurture argument) he's old and tattered from his lifetime of 50 bouts of fin-rot, 5 cases of velvet and all the "Nurture" arguments such as his environment and water issues.

But the fry will have the genes, and their own chances not to grow tattered if their new homes provide better environments than what 'dad' had.

....obviously i'm bored, i've got 8 hours to 'sit' a an exhibition I'm in, in an obscure gallery that nobody goes to.

I've been here an hour and have another 7 hours in front of me.

Somebody please respond before I use any more bold or coloured text. ARGH

-Ness

[forever_and_a_day]

interesting essay Ness lol. I have 2 cents to throw in about your "Is flaring and territorial behavior beneficial to a fish's development? " question.

I'm not sure how well this translates to fish, but I've watched a documentary detailing the effect of 'tameness' on colour. In this doc, they had an experiment going where black foxes (can't remember the name) were breed selectively for aggression and tameness. After generations,the aggressive ones were all still completely black, whilst the tame ones starting showing variations (some had pretty extreme variations) in colour only after a few generations.

... ok, my 2 cents was slightly unrelated ah well, I'm no geneticist myself.

and Ness, you're an artist? that sounds pretty interesting, which gallery are you dying in? XD

[les]

Ness I love it YES YES YES. Now the longer fined Betta seem to be only frationaly slower than the short fined Betta so would a short fin need less exersize than a long fin. I was thinking this as some humans that have shorter limbs tend to put on muscle more easly than the longer limbed person. in Alan pease book Why men dont listen and Woman cant read maps he hints at these questions and puts forward a simmiler argument. WOW Racess instead of the normal cells cIll give this a go when I get my new lot of perspex

Thank you Ness a great artical and well writen I know what exabitions are like I used to work for Barry Stern in sydney when I was twenty they can be full on or just snoooooozzzzz

Cheers

Les

[melbournebetta]

Thanks for indulging the arty rant... these are all just theories cooked up by the mad-scientist part of my brain.

I'm planning on making a series of these runs, but with the ability to "card" and "un-card" ...while the kids are flaring like mad, they probably will tire of swearing at everything and become complacent.

(Which is why people card at home & at shows)

MT: www.nessflett.com - i'm dying in a tiny horrible artist's run space in Fitzroy... it's what all the cool kids are doing.

Actually (you'll all appreciate this) I got so bored i packed up, drove to coburg aquarium, bought a nice super delta, popped it in my tank and came back... nobody has been at the gallery since i left.

My god - that really was an essay.

Curious about the colour in foxes, it's interesting what we inadvertently breed out of animals to domesticate them... for example, a quiet submissive fox that is good at being fed and not hunting, wouldn't succeed in the wild - so therefore cultivating those little black foxes is actually just breeding dumb foxes (in shorthand) Then what we want to breed them up to look like the real thing, so I'm sure we cross back to red ones to get colour but end up with sneaky lil foxes that eat our chickens... oh the dilemma of being the top of the food-chain.

it's a blessing and a curse.... makes me want to make more art.... and throw another pair in the spawn tank

-Ness

[melbournebetta]

P.S.

Les: the argument i'm putting forward would mean the short fin needs as much exercise as their bodies need to help develop as best they can - to make the most of his body type and spread (i.e. go to the gym every day)

...so there is no real method to it, and no blanket answer - every individual fry from each spawn needs a different ammount of time at the gym, just as you or your brother need difference.

Just as the long tail would get as much exercise as his body would need to maximise his individual development.

It's kinda philosophical, and as I've said.

I'm new to this - no expert, and I'm just testing a theory I have (: just because I'm big on using bold and italic dosen't mean I know what I'm on about

Food for thought: The breeders in Thailand know that they want the best fish as easily as possible, as they're working on a large scale - wouldn't standard barracks be long and narrow, not square and upright - if I were right?

hmmmmmmmmmm I do love a spanner in the works.

Other people's ideas welcome! What is everyone else's experience with grow-out tanks, done any experimentation?

-Ness

[shadoh]

Ness, I was just wondering how big is the run you have set up? The length of the tank?

You put forward a good argument for the development of the female. I guess it is whatever is easiest for the hobbyist/breeder when it comes to it. Unless you intend to use your females as show fish, then is it really necessary to keep them as carded gym bunnies? Although in a sorority situation, they establish a pecking order and don't flare/display as much as their carded sisters, they have a larger area of water/swimming space and a more natural environment (if kept in a heavily planted tank) available. Also makes our lives easier when it comes to water changes and jar cleaning...

Edited April 16, 2011 by shadoh

[Bettarazzi]

When you watch a betta swim up and down you'll see that they still use their caudal because they move head first. They don't just float upwards using the anal fin to propel themselves. To my eyes they appear to use the anal fin more as a rudder with the caudal being used more for forward motion. I think selecting for fin shape and length will get you there faster than trying to make them use one fin over another. Crossing to PK could give undesirable results. The original halfmoons were created using longfins and selecting both males and females for increased ray splits and webbing.

[melbournebetta]

@ Bettarazzi, I agree that it's not the anal that is used to travel up and down, still the caudal is the motor, however with length to sprint & move forward is there then potential that the overall body is getting more of a work out - along with the flairing to improve or.. should I say maximise the individual's capacity for spread.. would that be right?

Obviously all theory until I experiment with the next batch - 9 isn't really a very good balance of control and experimental groups.

@ Shadoh, there is absolutely no argument here that a sorority would be the easier setup - as for more natural - well who knows? survival of the fittest isn't really a factor that plays out as equally in our fish rooms as it might in the ponds of Thailand... those little ladies are unlikely to have as much 'competition' around, and I'm sure they'd travel further (where possible) to steak their own territory... all hypothetical.

...as for choosing my females, I want them in the same "gym fitness" as my males, so I can make an informed decision as to what to pair who with next.... sounds completely anal - and yes (: it is.

Oh, and I was discussing this with Neffy, I doubt if I could cope with a tank of top-notch ladies with chunks out of them... probably not (:

I prize my ladies, and would show them seriously if the scene were bigger in Melboune (buut what I wouldn't give for an easier setup than having them all barracked) - the eternal dilemma.

I came across this article from the wiley online libary:

"This paper examines the waning of intense aggressive behaviors in Siamese fighting fish subjected to continuous visual social stimulation. Damaging biting during subsequent fighting was dramatically reduced in fish which had been surrounded for several weeks by conspecifics, even though the overstimulated fish performed only opercular and fin displays to the fish surrounding them, not biting. The latency to opercular display was diminished, but the rate once opercular display began was not significantly different. In the 18 encounters observed, a socially overstimulated fish never dominated a control fish. This result suggests a visually mediated mechanism, which reduces biting tendency when there is prolonged, inescapable visual exposure to mildly aggression-releasing stimuli similar to those which trigger biting in live encounters. © 1994 Wiley-Liss, Inc."

Which partly confirms the theory that socially active/stimulated fish have reduced aggression - biting, but still demonstrated "fin displays"

(this is all done with individual fish un-carded as I understand, so not in a permanent sorority situation)

Makes for a good read and food for thought.

As for what makes a good half moon.... I have to second 'Razzi, find two healthy fish with good form.

The odds of a spawn with great form are pretty high.

Easy, Right?

-Ness

[rongrit]

reading this thread give me a lot of idea of breeding HM

[melbournebetta]

That's good DOMN,

But remember that anything I say is all just hypothetical - fleshing out ideas & looking at some research I've come across.

None of it tested or old methods as I'm a relatively new breeder.

Where abouts are you & are you breeding betta?

-Ness