Chuckie Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 This facebook page has photos and videos of betta "cruelty" that features - gasp - bettas in barracks. While indisputably well-intentioned, I do have to wonder exactly how the owner of the group expects betta breeders to raise 100's of offspring in more generous accommodations until sale time. http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stop-Fighting-Fish-Cruelty-Australia/135023769857648?v=info http://www.sfcaustralia.com/ Again, while the page is well intentioned, I cannot join it as I take offence to being depicted as cruel for using of barracks. My adult bettas live in a minimum of 10L tanks with sponge filters and plants but honestly, are we supposed to do that with all maturing juvenile bettas for any length of time? You would need your entire home shelved floor to ceiling to allow for as many tanks as you would need to raise one spawn!! Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delyall Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 Interesting to see nothing about the batch testing laws mentioned on their website or fb page... though they seem to have good intentions, theyre not particularly educated on the matters concerning bettas.. Not meaning to sound too rude, but they seem like a teenager whos chucked a tantrum and wants a bunch of people to follow their uneducated cause.. I cant imagine they could "actively investigates and exposes the inhumane treatment of fish within the aquarium industry." without getting a bunch of lawsuits about defamation of character or something? Dunno... cant think what its called... but the reason why we cant say where bad aquariums are on these forums :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skitch Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 Interesting to see nothing about the batch testing laws mentioned on their website or fb page... though they seem to have good intentions, theyre not particularly educated on the matters concerning bettas.. Not meaning to sound too rude, but they seem like a teenager whos chucked a tantrum and wants a bunch of people to follow their uneducated cause.. I cant imagine they could "actively investigates and exposes the inhumane treatment of fish within the aquarium industry." without getting a bunch of lawsuits about defamation of character or something? Dunno... cant think what its called... but the reason why we cant say where bad aquariums are on these forums I think the word you're looking for might be slander . And yep, I agree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 While they advocate a minimum 5L tank for keeping a betta and they advocate breeding bettas - they don't seem to appreciate the requirements when it comes to housing a maturing spawn... I'd be guessing none of them have actually bred these fish or are really aware of the attempts to conserve the wild species either.... a lot of gaps in their protest... but.... after having seen bettas kept in 80ml of water in a LFS I can understand their campaign.... also those LFS that advocate (and sell) tiny bowls for people to house their bettas in are a fair target too....I think if they keep their campaign aimed at LFS keeping fish in tiny containers its ok but to decry barracks (possibly due to lack of actual experience breeding the fish) they lose my support.... I think those who house their spawns in large tanks all together (like I have done) or those who have barracks with sumps (thereby giving a lot of filtered reticulated water to the bettas) are being responsible ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) Hmmm... I guess being an idealist is nice, and the "ideal" conditions for each fish should exist for its entire life span, so housing in barracks - even in the short term - can be considered inhumane...... However (and I don't mean to sound like a wet blanket, coz I actually really adore these amazing fish)... We, and the members of the above mentioned group are keeping/admiring heavily genetically modified creatures in CAPTIVITY. The vast majority are bred in mass industry, shipped in tiny bags, kept in quarrantine, and then kept in glass tanks (whether a cup or a 200litre tank) for human enjoyment. If they keep a pet (any pet) they should be considered hypocrites. Keeping a pet/animal in captivity can be considered part of a spectrum of "cruelty" which they are trying to abolish. Not so ideal, huh??? Edited October 19, 2010 by paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delyall Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) A lot of their information has been taken from other sites too, as well as many aquabid photos.. hmmm.. wonder if anything was actually written by them? I dunno, most of what Ive read so far still has the american 'gallons' and 'Fahrenheit' in it, for an Aussie site, that makes no sense I sent them an email asking them about certain 'misguided' things on their website. Heres their reply- Hello I will reply to your comment as follows. SFCA dose not support the use of drip systems. Althought the water is heated and filtered the animals are still in confinded in inaproppriate conditions that do not benifit the fish in anyway. Althought this kind of setup is ideal for breeders who breed many fish, we belive if you cant supply an animal with appropriate housing that is essential to its phycological and physical wellbeing you shouldent own them or so many. Hence puppy mills. 5Litres is a minium for SFCA approved breeders. (There are none in Australia) Pictures from the happy betta album has been submitted by members and supporters so we asume we can use them. Regarding indrovirus/batchtesting, there is simply no information available or very little. The group is devided on this issue also so we have not released anything as to date. Any information would be helpful. Regards, Stop Fighting-fish Cruelty Australia Team Edited October 19, 2010 by delyall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo oakley Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 Just on the breeding side of things, Did the pet Bettas just pop up or could they in fact be a product of what they Hate??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 Obviously a well educated bunch using such sophisticated terms!!! I don't think I've ever "confinded" my fish at all and certainly have never done anything to damage their "phycological" wellbeing!!!! "you shouldn't own them or so many"... so if my bettas spawn.... in order for me to not have so many I either need to negotiate the number of eggs with the pair of bettas or I have to cull/kill off the excess according to their logic? This is getting ridiculous! "5Litres is a minium for SFCA approved breeders"...... who the hell do they think they are to be "approving" breeders of bettas!!!! And no wonder there are no "approved" breeders in Australia - they have no obvious attachment to reality at the moment either..... "Regarding indrovirus/batchtesting, there is simply no information available or very little"...... similar to their knowledge of breeding and caring for bettas.... none or very little.... And of course being "devided" an issue is a very painful experience which I hope they all recover from!!!! "Any information would be helpful".<---- would be better off getting some information before they start carrying on with sensationalism!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishish Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) lol Wayne Some good points there everyone one of the pics on second website isn't real. The fish has been superimposed on the photo as his dorsal fin is erect way above the water. Anyway, personally I think they're taking it a bit far. Shipping is just for a few days and of course there are practicalities with spawns as has been said. I also agree with Paul somewhat. However I tend to disagree with a fish being kept in: 1. a container too small to swim around in as a permanent, long term home 2. fish being kept in really insy containers that are not filtered or maintained for ANY length of time (shipping aside)where the fish spend the last few miserable days or weeks of its life dieing from its own waste products. I was quite disturbed by discovering several dead such bettas at a lfs. There was mass accumulation of old food etc in there. Poor fishy Well thats what I've been thinking. but then i havn't tried to breed yet... part of why it took me so long to decide to get a tank is because i was unsure if i wanted to support keeping an animal in captivity I'd like to have birds in an avery but have just never been able to bring myself to do it. Edited October 19, 2010 by fishish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) No doubt there are shops that don't maintain their fish well.....not just bettas But Please.....if you think keeping your betta in a 20 litter tank with treated tap water(hard,alkaline),large colored pebbles to trap uneaten food,plastic or silk plants and feed it flake food ......is the right thing to do! Don't try to tell me that I don't know what I'm doing keeping mine in 2 litre jars, with a mixture of rain and tap water treated with ketapang leaves,50% weekly water changes, fine sand substrate full of snails to eat uneaten food, live plants java moss ,duckweed and lucky bamboo and feed expensive NLS pellets and mossie larva I won't listen.....because you obviously haven't got a clue!!! Edited October 19, 2010 by Rod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie Posted October 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 I emailed them prior to posting here to refer them to resources on batch testing, including the petition and the footage Razzi posted on YouTube. No reply to my email.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 I emailed them asking how to become an 'approved' breeder .... as yet no email response.... don't think they've made those rules up yet - probably busy looking up web pages right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neffy Posted October 19, 2010 Report Share Posted October 19, 2010 I love the fact that a majority of their happy betta pictures look to be in small glass barracks like containers haha ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yanagi Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 Late to join the show, but I do watch/like whatever that group and have talked to them about batch testing before.. They do seem concerned but uninformed and while I got them to post Bettarazzi's video and other batch testing info basically no one replied to any of it. I've followed it up with links to the petition which I know he signed, but don't remember if he posted it on the clubs wall as well. Their hatred for barracks and breeders is absolutely ridiculous and sure caused some specatular eye-rolling on this end. Obviously the owner of the group has never bred Betta before. Excuse me if I'm not making sense, kinda sick and fuzzy headed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brettc777 Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 I reckon Bettarazzi should do another blender video with a figther this time and then tag there facebook page with it lol. I like the form on that blue HM :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) Just got a reply to my email.... "Thanks for taking the time to send us a message with your thoughts and interest. The SFCA approved breeders program will not be active untill early next year so I will email you again when its ready to be released and applications are available. As far as culls, we agree culling deformed, diseased or any other problem that a fish has that may affect the fish's overall health, quality of life or its young if it reproduces. We don't agree with unnecessary culling because of colour or sex. Unwanted fish can be surrended to cares depending on your location. Culls should be carried out in any way you deem acceptable and be performed as soon as possible. Hope this helps and congradualtions the only friendly email this week." I've been congradulated!!! :) Edited October 20, 2010 by fishbites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delyall Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 Another reply.. they think Im Lilli for some reason.. - Hello Danielle or should I say Lillie? Our group was founded by breeders who have many years experience. And no! were not just some teenager. We stand by what we believe and if you don't agree with it you could simply ignore it instead of slenderising us on forums. SFCA understands your point of view regarding breeding as many of our founding members breed betta and many other fish too and we understand the problems that may arise. We are all too familiar with what you have to say, its nothing new. Breeders often feel threatened by what we say without properly inquiring what we actually stand for. Were not out to get your hobby, some of our members live and breath fish its the last thing we would do. So I don't think we will be needing your help im sure you have done enough. -- Slenderising? I dont get it. They havent even been an active group for a year.. why do they seem to think they have such authority? I dont know.. Im just really conflicted with all this.. it seems like its one person or maybe a small handful of people.. but theyre acting like the biggest thing for betta welfare.. I wonder what their 'founding members' breeding setups look like and cost.. interesting not to have any pictures of their own. Its frustrating, they could do a lot of good, if they just be more realistic.. or at least face the biggest concern to these fish at present which is batchtesting.. I still havent found any mention of it on their site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbites Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 I think the batch testing issue IS the biggest issue but would also support their attacks on LFS's that keep bettas in 100ml cups of water .... where they stand to lose a lot of credible support is if they attack breeders and hobbyists who genuinely care for their fish and treat them well - Bettas are a unique situation where they must be separated or they will fight.... The issue of Wild Betta conservation is also implicated in their campaign as wilds must be bagged and shipped in order for us to establish enough bloodlines to breed captive populations where the natural environment is under immediate and direct threat - eg; sp Mahachai which won't last in the wild for too much longer. Without breeders in Australia and other countries importing these fish (which are not commercially popular) we stand to witness species extinction and that will be a lot worse than keeping a few fish in a bag for a flight to Australia. My message to them would be stick to the LFS's that profit from the fish they keep in 100ml cups and they will get more support from responsible breeders. They also need to get credible rather than sensationalise themselves and their campaign..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delyall Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 My message to them would be stick to the LFS's that profit from the fish they keep in 100ml cups and they will get more support from responsible breeders. They also need to get credible rather than sensationalise themselves and their campaign..... Very much agreed. and of course, write their own 'care guide' and submit pictures thatre not stolen from aquabid.... It just bugs me that a group thats meant to be extremely knowledgeable about these fish, has to take a care guide from somewhere else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferox Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 Just got a reply to my email.... "...Culls should be carried out in any way you deem acceptable and be performed as soon as possible..." There's a sentence that doesn't inspire confidence. So tossing fry out live onto the lawn to eat is ok for culling? I think not. Leaves a lot open for interpretation. They don't take criticism or skepticism well, but this thread will certainly boost their search engine rankings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bec Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 Hey, just had a quick look and they have info on batch testing and a video up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeachSlices Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 i feel like making a video with 20 male fighters in a 4ft tank.Males have to be seperated. or they fight ...they are fighting fish FFS grrr i feel like raging it on that FB page. a betta barracks with flowing water to a sump is that not HEAVEN? its Stop Fighting-Fish Cruelty Australia why do they bag out other countries when its Leagal in other countries. don't let them see bonsai trees. i feel their page is pointless. besides aquariums keeping them in cups... Rescue hmmmm i hope they have 100000000000 1 foot cubes and 10000000000000000 heaters and filters ..... what a rescue. end of rant. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neffy Posted October 20, 2010 Report Share Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) you could always breed some LFS stock and send them the 100+ babies at jarring time see what they think of their policies then. i guess thats a bit mean for the little babies tho Edited October 20, 2010 by Neffy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckie Posted October 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2010 It is ironic that I have been accused of slander (and had my name misspelled) for simply having brought this group (which allegedly has a common interest with ours) to the attention of - let's face it - most of the betta hobby. And I actually said they were well intentioned, although I took issue with being slammed as "cruel" for having certain humane accommodations for my fish. Hardly slanderous. But then, I actually know what "slander" means... I am still awaiting a reply to my email to them, by the way .... :whistling: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bettarazzi Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 I don't see any intelligent information in anything they post. Nothing is scientifically backed up. It's all childish, emotional reactions. Hence why we think they're a bunch of teenagers. That and the bad grammar and spelling. How can you tell if a betta is happy or sad? It doesn't speak to you. You can only observe it's general physical condition, susceptibility to disease and willingness to breed. If these things don't much change whether you're keeping it in a beanie box or a 2 foot tank (as I have) then one can surmise that the size of the container isn't particularly detrimental. The whole idea of "rescuing" fish is flawed and ill-thought out. If they really wish to stop the cruelty then the most effective way is to stop buying them. Commercial Thai farms mass produce veiltails by raising them in whisky bottles. I'm not willing to call this cruel because I haven't spoken enough to a Thai breeder to find out how long they stay in those bottles, what sort of health impact it has, have they compared it to raising them in larger quarters etc. But if SFCA think those conditions are unacceptable. Don't buy them! if you don't agree with it you could simply ignore it No. I don't think I can or should ignore it. SFCA haven't ignored something that they don't agree with. Why should we? SFCA are spouting unscientific, emotional rubbish. SFCA approved breeder? For heaven's sake! I wouldn't want to be tainted with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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