melbournebetta Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 This might be a flash in the pan idea, but I saw some guppies on someone's channel and fell in love with Metal Red Lace Guppies. My trio arrived this morning, and have acclimatised and been released into a 40lt tank, prepared as I would my betta... including with some IAL. So part of me thinks this is a GREAT IDEA yeah! s'goin to be fun! The other part of me thinks this could be a severe distraction from the halfmoons. So long as I can stay on top of population, identify males and females early, and choose well, this should be a breeze... right? No, don't worry, I'm under no illusions. However I do want to know more about this particular genetic strain (lemme learn one strain at a time eh) and how I can improve the pattern, colour and form. I also have a sneaking suspicion that these little noodles will be harder to shoot than betta. In the meantime, this is an image of the Metal Red Lace Guppy: Here's an interview with the developer of the Metal Red Lace Franz Zeipelt: http://www.guppies.com/forums/showthread.php/34736-How-red-lace-guppies-was-created-(an-interview) I read with much interest of an interview between Robert Gall and Franz Zeipelt about the origin lace guppies. As I don't have any permission to cut and paste the whole interview, I think an extract of the interview would be sufficed for everyone here who loves lace guppies. Guppy Labs: Franz, when have the red lace snakeskin originated for the first time? And which were the basic strains? Franz Zeipelt: I started breeding the red lace snakeskin in 1976. They reached a show quality for the first time end of the 1980ies. My basic pair was a male from a Live Fish Shop and a female from of my own strain. The male was an import from Singapore, which I bought with several over males of various colours for 14,40 GDR-Mark (for each fish, this was quit a lot of money at this time). Normally all of these males were made sterile but I had good luck with my male. The male had a bright shiny green snakeskin pattern on the body, a very short, pale yellow dorsal fin and a very round delta caudal with a pattern of red and black. The female came from my half black red strain. But it showed no black because the half black is y-linked in this strain and so the females have just a gene for red, no half black. It showed no colour at all on the body and had only a pale red caudal. Guppy Labs: So that was the pair you started your new project but how did the first red lace look like? Franz Zeipelt: The first offspring almost looked like the father. I sent these male very successful to various shows. But only years later the caudal and dorsal improved and the pattern on the body became more fine. The first red lace were born. Sometimes black dots (or eye spots) appeared on the fore-bodies and also in the caudal. I tried to breed selectively these dots to stabilise them, but I had no success. Mid of the 1990ies I showed these males for the first time on international shows. Before I showed them only on our own shows. Until this time there were no “red lace snakeskin” in Europe and the fine shiny green lace pattern with a orange caudal was never seen before. Some breeders bought them and bred them successfully. Nowadays you can find red lace on all shows in good quality. I prefer actually orange coloured fins because they show a better harmony with the green lace pattern on the body in my opinion. This is such a male with a very fine lace pattern and a more orange than red caudal and dorsal: The guppy's picture was at the attachment above. Source: guppylacelovers.com Full interview report can be viewed and read if you're a member there and look for my post under "General guppy topics" and the thread Snakeskin and Laces. Below are a few prize winning red lace gups no idea what my boy looks like... he was pretty stressed when he arrived, can't wait to get home later tonight and harass him with the camera. Anyone know anythin' about red lace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KillieOrCory Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 I saw some guppies on someone's channel and fell in love with Metal Red Lace Guppies. ]My trio arrived this morning, and have acclimatised and been released into a 40lt tank, prepared as I would my betta... including with some IAL. *snip* Franz Zeipelt: I started breeding the red lace snakeskin in 1976. They reached a show quality for the first time end of the 1980ies. That's awesome, I am sure you'll really enjoy the guppies you got. Very nice strain. I was really happy to read Franz Zeipelt's quote above. Many a time I read people claiming they got a female guppy from Y and put it together with male guppy from W and voila; "I created a new strain" It takes many years of careful selective breeding to establish and develop a strain. This is why established strains through someone are cheap as chips. You do not need to spend a decade and 20 generations to establish the strain it is already done for you. With your lace snakeskins, I'd pick the best two males and three females from each generation to work with to maintain the strain strong. Don't try to keep all the fry as breeders for the next generation as this will ensure deterioration of the strain with each subsequent generation. Observe your male and the female; what characteristics you really like? examples: Male Dorsalfin: colour? shape? pattern? size? Male tail: colour? shape? pattern? size? Male Body: colour? shape? pattern? size? *keep in mind the bigger the tail you want, stronger the caudal peduncle needs to be to carry it* Female dorsalfin: colour? shape? pattern? size? Female tail: colour? shape? pattern? size? Female body: colour? shape? pattern? size? When you know which characteristics are most important to you pick the breeders that show the best promise based on your preference. Be ruthless in culling; ie. do not consider breeding from ones that don't meet your criteria no matter how beautiful they are. Within a short few generations your fish should be improving and the characteristics you chose enhancing. Since you are starting with good genetics anyway you are most of the way there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted May 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou - this is the voice (try and understand it) that I was hoping to hear! I've already got a LFS really happy to take extra fish, so I'm not worried about where they're going as surplus, and there will be a few takers at our fishy meets Wonderful - I need to go home and photograph Doyle (short for doyley - get it? ....lace) and identify what I want my lace kids to be... primarily strong in the body and colour. Thanks Serkan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_and_a_day Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 hey Ness, just a quick reminder. while IAL is the miracle cure for most things betta related, guppies are alkaline fish, so I wouldn't go over board with it and please harass them with the camera asap :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieBell Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Wow! It's like a leopard and a fish in one... Cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milamber Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Congrats on the guppies! they are stunning! really cannot wait to visit someone in her shop There is so much more to guppies than i previously imagined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afr3178 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 My last name is Franz spelt the same way! Maybe it's a sign for me to get into guppies..? And develop my own line haha. Those are gorgeous though and can't wait to see yours! They have almost persuaded me to get some guppies... but not quite ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted May 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 MT - thanks, I'm a total nuff nuff when it comes to other species.... will look closer into their needs and wants. They're hiding up the back - VERY timid little dudes, he's coloured up, and one of the females has particularly nice markings. (: will intimidate with camera sooon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_and_a_day Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 haha, i know what you mean by timid, i just got a shipment and they wouldn't even look at me. they're really cute and inquisitive now that they've settled in though camera yet? yes? no? maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted May 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Hilarious - they've just done the same - gutsy ladies are always up the front of the tank when I pass and the male is starting to do the same - little pigs, I forgot how greedy guppies were. I was about to say that I didn't have any time to shoot them... then the MSG kicked in from my pho dinner and I got all excited. I'd still like to put him in the "photography tank" that I made with the crappy DIY thread... but the lighting and a bit of flash - and my golly they look orright under fluro light! I LIKE THIS PHOTO BECAUSE YOU CAN SEE SHES GOT PEOPLE INSIDE HER This is DOYLE - short for DOYLEY.... get it... metal LACE ... uh hhh hh h huhhhh my favorite girly HIM again - do you have any idea how horrible these fish are to photograph? don't say i don't do nothin for ya. x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 I want his babies make sure you keep the water hardness up, mine developed bloat when kept in water that was soft. Keep in mind also that the first 3-6 drops won't be his fry but more than lickly some other unknown father of the same strain. Make sure you separate boys and girls early because you want virgins to line breed, they can store sperm for months and you don't want to stuff around waiting for them to use up all their sperm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 @ Mighty Matt Do you want to re-think that first statement?????? NESSSSSS They are awsome. Guppy designer site is a wealth of info and ha shelped me in my endevers. They wont distract from the Betta but like MT said water is diferent mine get it straight from the bore but apart from that big feeds and big waterchanges and you are on your way. and a new adiction begins. Have you tried Kilies:devil: Ha Ha Cheers les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Hahahah Matt - I don't know, I think they've all been housed separately - I must clarify that with someone...(?) dus anyone know?? They all arrived in separate bags... are those little eyeballs too developed to be just a few days old?? Les - I'm really happy with them, I have registered with the Gdesigner site - but i must admit I find it a bit lacking in the red lace department. Are there any good links you can point me to with the sort of form I should be looking to enhance? (I need help navigating that forum... where is the GOLD) Sunday these little blighters are going in their own tank (currently shared with 2 pairs of betta in my 3 foot... it's too much FISH IN ONE) a bit risky too, but I have so much stock at the moment it' a bit despo. Killies - yeah nah, I like delicate little fish, but killies are just toooooo small (and I cant piff the females into my betta sorority cos killies are psycho) Dont forget my background is in the kind of show goldfish that you need two hands to lift out of the water - TANK BUSTING FAN TAILS MAN.... these little fish aren't all that impressive - but guppies ! SQUEE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 No back at the breeders farm, they would be housed all together, the strains won't be mixed though, they come into the store gravid. So they would be fertilized by another male most likely but of the same strain :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Rodger Dodger (I'm going to need lots of help with these d00ds) I'll let her drop and grow them out to see if there's anything there I want... Subscape have said they'll take quality males as there aren't many metal laces around. Yee Haw! I think I want red ones now.... oh dear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forever_and_a_day Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 those females are gorgeous! nevermind the fancy males! enjoy them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted May 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 can i keep the guppy females in a sorority with my betta females and the psycho angels? Everyone seems pretty calm in there and it's planted up the wha-zoo..... thoughts? Just thinking aloud... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 The angles will easily eat them and my bettas absolutely destroyed every single guppy I had.... I wouldn't risk it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 I have my serority it is three foot with 2 CT girls 12 PK girls and a giant girl I also have a trio of gold tail snake skin and they have had two drops with plenty of fry swimming around. The tank is heaverly planted and the fish are well feed so from my experiance I would go ahead, But maby my girls prefer grindels and Blackworms to guppie fry. I think it might be diferent if all they got was dry food then live guppie fry might make a good addition to the menu. Ill chase up the links I have and post for you Ness Will you show them if shows are organised Pleeeeease. I am going to see a breeder next week and he said I could buy the good ones so I will have a few to show. Cheers les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 How long are the tails on yours Les? I had really showy girls with very long caudals and lots of spread, they looked like males but with a gravid spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
les Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Mine are just normal like in my post I dont have flashy girls Cheers les Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt_95 Posted May 17, 2012 Report Share Posted May 17, 2012 Ahh ok, maybe that's why, I would be more concerned about the Angels anyway, they eat anything that fits in their mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbreed Posted May 18, 2012 Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 Hey Ness, Great choice for your first Guppies. They are painful to photograph but you did an awesome job. So these are basically the result of a red lace female crossed with either a blue or black moscow male. Lovely fish. The books available from guppy designer go into great details about genetics and breeding, great reference. Good luck with the beautiful new additions. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melbournebetta Posted May 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 Thanks guys... I've decided the guppies will get their own tank (divided) and I may just end up with a really lovely display tank.... I bought some colourful mutts for my mum to plonk in an IQ3 Dymax tank that I have kicking around... but I would like to breed Doyle and his lady friends. Interesting, I bought some Black Moscows also (big spread, lovely fish) I wonder what would happen crossing them to the red lace? I find the guppy designer forum a bit scattered, and I'm an artist - I skim over the content when a heading says "genetics" but I do understand the X and Y genes are inherited with gender dependance... i got that far. Cheers Y'all - any advice on these guys will be well-received! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newbreed Posted May 19, 2012 Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 The genetics can be full on. Thats the part i enjoy (could never be considered an artist me). If you cross a male moscow to one of your lace females you may end up with black bodied bubs with beautiful lace tails. I wouldn't cross them, they are stunning as they are, but definitely deserve their own tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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